Bring it on? Fuck you…

Who’s talking about the press? I’m talking about the candidates!

This whole Vietnam thing sets up a terrible precident for future campaigns. (especially if Kerry wins)I can just see thirty years from now, one candidate who was a Iraq war vet chastising the other candidate who wasn’t. In fact, I am surprised that a New York City Firefighter hasn’t decided to go into politics yet. Imagine the traction that he can get out of stating that he ran into the burning WTC to save people. How could anyone dare challenge him in any way. No matter what his policy ideas would be. Back to Vietnam, one can only imagine how many Vietnam Vets are currently in prison, and even on death row. Should they have been excused of their criminal behavior since they were “war heros”? The whole damned thing is rediculous. Perhaps after the Republican convention the media will be forced to cover the Presidents policy ideas, and thus force the candidates to talk about issues as well. One can only hope. Until then, I too will significantly tune out.

I don’t think he got to the third paragraph, RKB.

Imagine if Kerry had any connections to a fundraiser like George Soros who’s trying with all his might to turn moveon.org into even more of an anti-Bush organization.

Imagine that.

Pete,

Being a “war hero” won’t buy you a cup of coffee. It shouldn’t be used as a shield to avoid answering questions about your past. Kerry, by his own admission, committed a war crime during Vietnam; essentially shooting an unarmed and fleeing teen VC in the back. What a hero. Meanwhile, all of the special interest whores in NOW, NEA, Planned Parenthood, Move On, Greenpeace, and FILL-IN-THE-BLANK-WITH-CLUELESS-LIBERAL-GROUP are lining up behind their “war hero.” Wow, I can’t wait to have an admitted war criminal in the White House. The French seem to love him. Maybe Kerry can hand over the keys to the Pentagon to the UN, and the Europeans will start throwing roses in front of his path wherever he walks…

Sometimes I wish I deleted more comments…

RKB: You’re backpedaling. Whether Bush joined the National Guard or went to Vietnam isn’t the issue. I don’t care at all. The issue is whether Bush is making Kerry’s service a campaign issue. He ain’t. Game over. Thank you for playing.

[I don't consider a lack of "war hero" experience a disqualification for the White House. The Presidency is a civilian job. Sure, military service is an advantage -- but it *can* also be a disadvantage, in that former military officers might be biased toward military action (whereas, someone with a civilian background might show more restraint). Not always the case. But possible.]

If you want to talk about what Bush is doing today, fine. I’d be happy to discuss that. But the point of this whole thread is that Bush supposedly brought up Kerry’s Vietnam service as his primary campaign message. That’s a bold-faced lie. Bush ain’t talking about Vietnam. And not only is there no connection between the Swift Boat Vets (and give me a break on the NY Times “Six Degrees of Separation” crap; by that measure, we’re all linked to Osama Bin Laden. If the libs in the media applied the same measure to their friends in the Kerry campaign, they’d have a lot of 527 problems on their hands).

Between us, I’m sick of politicians’ lies. I had to stomach Clinton’s lies for 8 long, pathetic years. Kerry is a worthless patrician scumbag, in my opinion, who never took a solid position in his life. Like Clinton, his whole existence has been modeled toward crafting an “image” of JFK; but, when you probe deeper, you find that Kerry is an empty suit. A waffler. A wife-upgrade specialist. Soft on defense. Soft on terror. He can’t decide whether he supports the Iraq war or not (it depends on daily polling, apparently).

You may not like Bush’s actions on faulty intelligence; but he, at least, acted on intelligence; whereas, Kerry read the same intelligence reports and then accused Bush of “lying to the American people about it”. As if. I simply trust Bush more. I don’t trust Kerry to make tough decisions. I think that Kerry will place our sovereignty in the hands of the UN. Because the bottom line is that the doesn’t want to make any decisions. He wants somebody else to be held accountable for decisions — and what better way to do it than hand over control to the limp-wristed UN, a bloated bureaucracy that can certainly pass resolutions but doesn’t have the balls to back them up with boots on the ground.

And that would have what to do with anything, G?

Umm … because it’s one of the stupidest fucking questions I’ve heard in a long time.

It’s not “dodging” a question as much as it is wondering, still, what the hell it has to do with a discussion about Bush and Kerry, trusting that it’s probably just because you like to be a complete pain in the ass.

That’s fine.

Answer is “no.”

And now I will dutifully wait for your sharp wit and keen insight that will tell me exactly what that answer means.

RKB: Whether Bush served in the National Guard or went to Vietnam is irrelevant. The POTUS is a civilian job. Bush isn’t attacking Kerry for his war record and, as far as I’ve seen, there is no link between the Swift Boat Vets and the Bush campaign. Anybody who wants to invoke Six Degrees of Separation between Swift Vet Donors and Bush should probably think long and hard about that proposition — because Kerry has a similar problem with 527-funded organizations.

As for what they’re doing today, I have more confidence in Bush; consequently, I’m going to vote for him. Kerry is a fence-sitter. Wife-upgrade specialist. Kennedy-wannabe. Soft on defense. Soft on terrorism. Given the fact that we’re in a war and Kerry has actually specified that he would pull troops out of Iraq (irresponsible as Hell to make such statements now), the prospect of a Kerry Administration should scare the Hell out of most thinking Americans.

Similar words from Col. David Hackworth:

Sure, Bush dodged the draft, along with a reported 14 million other Americans with the savvy to work out that Vietnam was a no-win, sorry war. But although he had the luck and the connections to land a spot in the Air Guard, he did put his butt on the line flying a machine for which he was entitled to hazardous-duty pay ñ and that’s because zooming around in a jet fighter was and still is highly dangerous.

And sure, Kerryís campaign push on how he Ramboed his way through the war ñ for four months ñ rubs a lot of vets the wrong way. And it does take its toll on those of us who prefer our heroes to be modest, unassuming types like Alvin York ñ who stayed the course until it was ìOver, over there.î

But politics and style aside, Kerry did serve with distinction in Vietnam when he easily could have avoided that killing field. His service to his country shouldnít be diminished by the same despicable, politically motivated tactics visited upon Sens. John McCain in South Carolina and Max Cleland in Georgia, also Viet vets. This kind of gutter-bashing doesnít belong in American politics, and vets shouldnít allow themselves to be used as ammo for cheap shots at one of their own.

(source)

Fuck you, Gordon, for continuing to put words in my mouth and missing the point of my post by a country mile.

I will highlight the important part, in what most people would recognize as the conclusion to the post you’ve apparently taken offense to.

“Letís talk about what these two men are doing today, what they plan to do tomorrow, instead of dwelling on who they were in their twenties.”

And by the way, you fucking dickhead, as long as you want to call people names, I would have failed the physical had I had the chance to enter the draft at 21. In point of fact, all things being the same, if I’d been 20 in 1969 instead of a newborn, I wouldn’t have lived to see 21.

Don’t you dare talk to me about personal courage, you fuck.

I’ve never been a politician and yet I criticize them. Never been a doctor or a lawyer, yet am able to lodge criticisms against those vocations as well. Never been a professional baseball or football player, but I’ll find plenty of people willing to join me in complaining about any number of players.

And yet, in this strange World According to Gordon, I’m unable to levy even the slightest criticism against someone who served in the army unless I’ve done so myself.

Clear enough for you, dolt?

You can’t criticize a woman unless you are one? Can’t criticize your manager?

You’re stupider than I gave you credit for, Gordon, if you think the personal attacks started with this thread. My responses to you start with eleven, based on past history.

Try to check your emotions RKB, it’s embarrassing.

He wasn’t in the Army idiot. If you’re going to defend your “talking points” from MoveOn.org, at least keep the facts straight.

And yes, you are a gutless fucking shitbag for having the nerve to criticize Bush’s honorable service as a Pilot in the Air National Guard.

Did you get that DOLT? A GUTLESS FUCKING SHITBAG AND A MORAL COWARD.

And you’re still dodging the hard questions…

I’m still dodging the hard questions? You’ll have to show me questions I’ve missed, because as far as I can tell, with the exception of “are you a moral coward?” I’ve answered every one.

You, on the other hand, continue to nitpick a word here a word there, thinking it gives you some superior moral ground.

Nothing changes in my post because I wrote “army” instead of “armed services.”

But it’s good to know, now, that in your world you can’t criticize someone unless you’ve walked a mile in their shoes. And since I doubt you’ve served in Vietnam, it’s not possible for you to lodge any criticisms about Kerry’s service.

So now I know that you are nothing more than a simple, arrogant prick, propping himself with some false moral superiority. You are the coward, Gordon, for not being able to see in yourself the things you despise in others. You’re the gutless shitbag.

p.s. I realized there was another quesion you’d asked earlier that I hadn’t answered:

Are you telling me that men that have served in the National Guard ducked out their responsibilities? Are you telling me that men in the National Guard never serve overseas in combat?

Again I’ll fall back on your general stupidity for equating what was CLEARLY a reference to the National Guard in the late sixties to the National Guard of today. It is WELL KNOWN that the Guard then was a safe-haven. OF COURSE I wouldn’t suggest the same today — and you’ll also notice that I didn’t. Dumb shit.

I ask:
“Are you telling me that men that have served in the National Guard ducked out their responsibilities?”

You reply:
“Again Iíll fall back on your general stupidity for equating what was CLEARLY a reference to the National Guard in the late sixties to the National Guard of today. It is WELL KNOWN that the Guard then was a safe-haven.”

So you’re telling me that all men that enlisted and accepted commissions in the National Guard were cowards? That they hid there to avoid Vietnam? Stop dancing around the questions asshole and answer them straight forward.

I ask.
“Are you telling me that men in the National Guard never serve overseas in combat?”

You reply.
“OF COURSE I wouldnít suggest the same today ñ and youíll also notice that I didnít. Dumb shit.”

This is too easy. You talk an awful lot of smack about things you have no idea about. So you’re telling me that during Vietnam, Guardsmen never served in Vietnam or saw combat?

RKB, you don’t know what you’re talking about and struggle time and time again to stand behind MoveOn.orgs “talking points”. Take the next step, cut off the umbilical cord, and learn to think for yourself.

Gutless fuck.

Substance, as defined by the gutless wonder – RKB.

“Fuck you, Gordon.”

“You are the coward.”

So, so typical of poor, poor Gordon. Cherry-picking the stuff that gets under his skin while ignoring the rest.

La-la-la

La-la-la

You’re hopeless, Gordon. Seriously. I’ve answered your questions several times over already. I can’t help it if you’re unable (or unwilling) to see it. Too stupid, or too thick, or, more likely, just too stubborn. You already know what answer you expect from me, so you read everything through that distorted filter.

It’d almost be funny if it wasn’t so pathetically predictable, your knee-jerk opposition to any point I make. You cling to your little kernel of misunderstanding as if it were the last bastion of sanity in your world — to let go, to acknowledge that Robert has made a salient point, oh the unspeakable horrors!

I would be stunned to find if you had EVER written a response that used the words “I understand” or “good point” or “that’s fair.”

Nope.

Not Gordon. Strong Gordon. Powerful Gordon. Oh, yeah. Gordon the Magnificent. A manly man. The manliest of men who will never back down.

The comment from “jheka,” above, is from my stalker … please delete it when you have a chance. Thanks.

Wow. Not just stupid, Gordon proves that he’s also got an inflated sense of self-worth. Hard questions? You don’t ask hard questions, Gordon. What you offer up are transparent attempts to box somebody into a predefined answer that you’re ready to pounce on. You did it once already earlier in this thread, and now you’re doing it again. The only hard part comes with the internal debate about whether or not to give you the satisfaction of answering. But then you’re also happy with NO answer, because it reinforces the answer you already expect, so I’m game.

The trick is, you miserable pile of twice-digested cat vomit, is to actually think. THINK, GORDON. I know this will be a challenge for you, because it will divert whatever remaining wattage comes from that dim bulb on top of your shoulders away from which liberal outrage will be the latest recipient of your venom, but you’ll have to try. You see, “hard questions” are ones that actually require a few brain cells to answer. In your case, since reading comprehension is obviously a skill you decided you didn’t need after kindergarten, I’ll try a different approach to answering your questions one last time.

You stupid fucking fuck.

Do you honestly think I’m having trouble articulating my intent on this thread? Do you seriously believe, you arrogant assclown, that I’m being anything less than clear about my meaning? Am I stuttering, dipshit? Am I being vague? Can you understand my meaning, or do you need to squint and read between the lines and try to imagine what I’m INSINUATING?

So when I write “it was more of an exception that somebody born with a silver spoon in their mouth would actually VOLUNTEER for duty in Vietnam than chose the safe-haven that was the National Guard,” what I MEAN is that during the Vietnam War, choosing to enlist with the National Guard was a safer alternative than actually volunteering for duty in country.

Period.

And if you have any doubts about what’s the TRUTH, then, please, Gordon, scroll to the bottom of this page: U.S. Military Casualties in Southeast Asia, Deaths by Status. Of the approximately 58,000 Americans who were killed in Vietnam, less than one hundred were from the National Guard.

That, idiot, is what I mean when I say that the National Guard was a safe haven during Vietnam. Nothing else. No other deeper hidden meaning. Get it?

“You stupid fucking fuck.”

That’s got to be, hands down, the “stupidest” thing I have heard in a long while.

Bravo Robert.

Sigh. There goes the neighborhood.

I never thought it was possible to run into someone as fucking stupid and arrogant as you RKB. Not once have you answered my question directly. You dance around it everytime, but lack the nerve to come right out and say what you’re insinuating.

You got ZERO balls RKB. That’s probably why never served yourself, no nads right?

I just can’t believe someone who never served, can have the gaul to insult the men that have.

You were nevr willing to raise your right hand, were you? You’re not willing to put your life where your mouth is, are you?

You’re nothing more than a coward with a big mouth RKB.

Now go eat another pot pie and watch CNN and enjoy the freedoms that the men and women, NOT YOU, that have served in the Armed Forces (including the National Guard)have paid for.

I know who you are. Or what you are.

You’re a coward that never served who has the gaul to critisize those who have.

“Iíd be careful if I were you, Gordon. Courage comes in many different shapes and sizes.”

Is that some sort of a petty threat? Excsue me while I stifle the laughter.

“Sounds to me like you’re INSINUATING that the only men and women who are NOT cowards are those that have chosen a path that involves military service.”

Sounds like you have an issue with reading comprehension. I have a problem with assholes like you that never had the balls to serve but have the gall to criticize those who have. Try to pay attention.

“Arenít you calling into question the courage of, say, a Dick Cheney, or a Donald Rumsfeld?”

Donald Rumsfeld did serve you fucking moron. He was an active duty Naval Aviator who retired in the Naval Reserves. Try just once to get your facts straight before you open that gargantuan mouth of yours.

“You read insults in my answers. IF I INSULTED ANYONE, it would be specifically George W. Bush and NO ONE ELSE.”

BULLSHIT, again you lack the balls to stand behind what you said. You’ve indicted an entire generation of men that served in the National Guard as cowards who “ducked their responsibilities” and used the Guard as a “safe haven.” These are your own words cornhole, can you at least stand behind them?

“I think Vinny has demonstrated a shitload of moral courage and clarity over the past six months.”

Ha Ha. Now you’re trying to drag Vinny into the fray. Here’s a newsflash for you RKB – GET A SPINE AND TRY TO STAND ON YOUR OWN TWO FEET.

“I DO NOT THINK ANYBODY WHO FOUND ANY ALTERNATIVE TO SERVING IN VIETNAM WAS A COWARD.”

Amazing, you finally answered the question, sort of. If you don’t THINK, then why do you insinuate?

I am curios why YOU chose to duck out of your responsibilities RKB. Why didn’t you ever serve your country? What’s your excuse?

Well?

Wow! Look at the backpedaling!

The whole post was one big backpedal, douche bag. Just like your excuse for not serving.

Hmm.

Weird.

“I got a young man named George W. Bush into the National Guard … and I’m not necessarily proud of that,” Barnes, an Austin lobbyist and John Kerry supporter with a lucrative Washington practice, said on the tape. “It was the worst thing I did, was help a lot of wealthy supporters and a lot of people who had family names of importance get into the National Guard. And I’m very sorry of that and I’m very ashamed, and I apologize to you as the voters of Texas.”

Source

“Gordon the Fuck who canít fucking read:”
Well said. At what Trailer Park Night School did you earn your GED?

“Show me the words ìNATIONAL GUARDî in that sentence, dickhead. I point to one man who, in his own words, chose the National Guard over OTHER options. I didnít write ìeverybody who joined the Guard ducked out of their responsibilitiesî or that ìthe Guard are a bunch of pussiesî or even ìthe only reason someone would ever join the National Guard was if they were a coward who wanted to avoid service in ëNam.î

Are you really this pathetic? You stated GW shirked the duties of his generation by joining the National Guard. You then proceeded to point out that those who joined the National Guard did so as a “safe haven” to avoid the war and even cited the National Guard website. Therefore, GW, like all the other National Guardsmen, is a pussy that skirted the duties of his generation and avoided the war by joining the national guard. THESE ARE YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE. Get some balls or some some semblance of courage and stand behind what you say RKB.

“Not once, ever, anywhere did I insinuate anything about the men and women of the National Guard. Ever.”

Is that so? Wasn’t it you that accused…

It is WELL KNOWN that the Guard then was a safe-haven.

The Reserves and the Guard acquired reputations as draft havens for relatively affluent young white men. Military leaders questioned the wisdom of depending on reserve forces that might not be available except in dire emergencies.

The point is that IN THAT GENERATION, it was more of an exception that somebody born with a silver spoon in their mouth would actually VOLUNTEER for duty in Vietnam than chose the safe-haven that was the National Guard.

Nope. No sir. No insinuations there. Honest. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

“BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, GEORGE W. BUSH CHOSE THE GUARD IN ORDER TO AVOID COMBAT IN VIETNAM.”

And what’s your excuse for avoiding it? Too many bake sales for the Webelos? I’d say pot meet kettle but you never placed anything on the line for anyone but yourself. You never raised your right hand. The only thing you ever served was blow jobs at the truck stop and rest areas you frequent.

Zero balls RKB. You got zero balls.

“As if I need an ìexcuseî for my career path. From about the age of ten, I wanted to join the Navy, because Roger Staubach had been in the navy. I used to open up the encyclopedia and look at all the ranks and imagine how old I would be when I advanced through them. “

Translation: I always wanted to be a sailor but lacked the balls to actually follow through.

“At seventeen, Iíd mapped out everything that I needed for my application to Annapolis. I was going to be a navy pilot, flying and landing on carriers. I had 30/20 vision. I was set.”

Translation: I had great plans but no follow through. Well, not to mention my lack of credentials. The USNA would have laughed at my application.

“That summer, though, as with my sixteenth summer, were spent as a camp counselor at a YMCA. Did you ever do that, Gordon?”

As a matter of fact cornhole, between the age of 14-24, I spent five summers working at boys camps as an assistant counselor and counselor. You?

At the end of the summer, after much internal debate, I decided that I didn’t love the idea of taking orders, of always doing what I was told regardless of whether or not I thought it was right.

Translation: I got cold feet.

I realized that I loved writing, loved working with people, and that I would be doing my country a DISSERVICE if I continued with my lifelong dream of going to Annapolis, potentially taking a spot from somebody else.

Translation: I’m a fucking pussy with no courage that decided to skirt my responsibilities to my country. I’m also full of shit because Naval Officers write all the time and spend every waking hour “working with people.” I’m really just hiding my cowardice.

but youíd seriously better back the fuck off about questioning my courage

Or what RKB? Or what? Will you call me a “fucking fuck” if I keep it up?

or my dedication to making this country a better place.

Oh, I question it all right. But only because you have the gall to question others. You don’t like the bitter taste of your own medicine do you?

We chose different paths. Yours is no better than mine.

To hell it isn’t. I’m leagues beyond you in public service. Keep playing catch-up though RKB.

Finally, some well-reasoned responses from Gordon. I don’t have time to get into them, all, but #64 is still wrong for reasons I’ll get into later, #65 illustrates where I misunderstood you, and I’m actually sorry for questioning your character, given all that you’ve clearly contributed (even though your’re still playing some kind of dick-measuring contest with me, denigrating the ways in which I’ve served my community), and #66 is all irony.

This is the key paragraph to come back to, which shows you how have not understood the point I made very early on:

Are you really this pathetic? You stated GW shirked the duties of his generation by joining the National Guard. You then proceeded to point out that those who joined the National Guard did so as a ìsafe havenî to avoid the war and even cited the National Guard website. Therefore, GW, like all the other National Guardsmen, is a pussy that skirted the duties of his generation and avoided the war by joining the national guard. THESE ARE YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE. Get some balls or some some semblance of courage and stand behind what you say RKB.

Your “therefore” is not accurate. Take out the “like all other National Guardsmen” and you’d be closer, but still wrong.

President”>http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4179618/“>President Bush: Political season is here. I was ó I served in the National Guard. I flew F-102 aircraft. I got an honorable discharge. I’ve heard this ó I’ve heard this ever since I started running for office. I ó I put in my time, proudly so.

I would be careful to not denigrate the Guard. It’s fine to go after me, which I expect the other side will do. I wouldn’t denigrate service to the Guard, though, and the reason I wouldn’t, is because there are a lot of really fine people who have served in the National Guard and who are serving in the National Guard today in Iraq.

Still do plan on responding to this, Gordon, but since you hate it when people who haven’t served in the Armed Forces criticize those that have, I was wondering what you think about this:

Delegates to the Republican National Convention found a new way to take a jab at Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry’s Vietnam service record: by sporting adhesive bandages with small purple hearts on them.

Morton Blackwell, a prominent Virginia delegate, has been handing out the heart-covered bandages to delegates, who’ve worn them on their chins, cheeks, the backs of their hands and other places.

(source)

We can talk about courage, now, too, since you seem bent on pointing out that because I never served in the Armed Forces that I’m a gutless sack of shit. I’ve said, repeatedly, that courage takes many shapes and many sizes, and that you don’t have a monopoly on courage simply because you’ve been in the military. Or that anybody who has not is a coward.

Take, for example, the twenty-one year old leukemia patient. Five-year survival rates for Acute Myelogenous Leukemia are something on the order of 15-20 percent. So if this guy happens to be one of the approximate one-tenth of one-percent of Americans who are lucky enough to be diagnosed with leukemia, he might be able to take some comfort in knowing that there’s significantly better than a fifty-fifty chance he’d be dead in five years.

Nice.

And, see, the best part is that he’s even started chemotherapy yet. He knows the chemotherapy is going to kick the shit out of him — hair loss is one thing, but all the daily vomiting, the high fevers, the other complications that come along with it — but if he doesn’t go along with the chemo and other supporting drugs, then he’s definitely dead. With the chemo, at least it’s only a maybe.

Oh, yeah. What about that time near the end of his treatment, after the chemotherapy was so strong, so high-dose, and he had that rare eye infection? Your eye is connected to your brain, right, and the infection had spread there, too. Daily MRIs and CAT scans, while he was on a dozen different antibiotics twenty-four seven, and now it’s not just the cancer he’s worried about, but the fact that his skull is going to be opened up. Not much, just a quarter sized chunk, and the doctors promise they’ll of course be extra extra careful when they’re taking the sample of his brain tissue, but it still causes no small amount of concern. He’s definitely afraid about this turn of events, as if he hasn’t already been afraid at any other point during his six-month battle.

But that’s probably just because he’s a coward. Fourteen years later and he’s still a coward, apparently, even though he managed to make it through a deck that was very much stacked against him, and had every opportunity to be killed by a disease that he never volunteered to get in the first place.

As for your medical claims, it would seem you have found your own “SAFE HAVEN” to “duck out” of the responsibilities of your generation. Maybe you have more in common with Bush than you think?

Lots of guys have faked medical claims to avoid serving in the Armed Forces. Why not you?

Gordon, that really was over the line… I think an apology is in order.

Kerry applied for a deferrment and was denied.
Kerry applied for Ferry duty and got sent to combat instead.
Kerry received 3 Purple Hearts in less than four months, none of which required time lost from work.
Kerry was denied at least one, but went back channels on his own to get it.
Kerry displays medals that he didn’t even earn.
The overwhelming majority of the witnesses to Kerry’s medals claim he didn’t earn them and made up the circumstances in which they were received.

Anyone but the kool aid drinkers would at least call them into question.

Vinny, I am immeasurably offended by RKB’s slander of the courage and integrity of our country’s National Guardsmen. These courageous men and women have answered the call to their country and sacrificed much – many have paid the ultimate price.

I would like to see RKB look in the faces of the collective widows and orphans and tell these people their Dad’s were “shirker’s” and “cowards” that found a “safe haven” to “duck out” of their responsibilities.

The day he articulates an apology for his slander, I’ll return the same. Until then, it’ll be a cold day in hell before I apologize to a man that so coldly desecrates the honor of our National Guardsmen.

Gordon, the second and third paragraphs of what Vinny wrote above are pretty much exactly what I’ve been saying all along.

There were people who joined the guard to get out of duty in Vietnam. Denying that is just closing your eyes to the obvious. Did they all? Obviously not.

[...]

But some did, and thatís undeniable.

Are you going to lace into him now, too? Is he dishonoring the Guard, too? Is he calling them all cowards, too?

And PLEASE stop putting words in my mouth. Let me be as clear as day (I’ve already said this, back in #55): “I do not now, nor have I ever felt that ANYONE who looked for alternatives was a coward.” You might think the opposite, Gordon, but that’s your opinion, again, not mine. If you want to take me to task for thinking that George W. Bush was a pampered, spoiled, irresponsible, silver-spoon playboy, then that’s fine. But thinking someone is irresponsible and thinking they are cowards are two different things. I think he was the former, not the latter. I do not equate irresponsibility with cowardice, especially at that age. Who the fuck wasn’t irresponsible at twenty?

I have made absolutely no statements, implied or otherwise, that question the courage, character, or integrity of anybody except George W. Bush. Him and his other arrogant, elite, wealthy buddies represented probably a small fraction of the Guardsmen. Again: disagree with me about the man running for President if you want, but don’t project my feelings about him onto every other person who ever served in the Guard over the past thirty years.

Remember: I don’t think I’ve had any problem stating my intent throughout this thread. If I felt that W. exhibited cowardice, I certainly would have said so. Clearly and repeatedly, just as I’ve been fairly forthcoming with how I feel about you. I even tried to go over the top with this in #47, but you didn’t seem to understand it, then. If you think I’m insinuating something, Gordon, then that just means that you’re reading something into my text that doesn’t exist.

In fact, lost in all of this discussion is what I wrote WAY back up in #13:

Just because Bush didnít volunteer for ëNam ñ and had an acknowledged problem with the bottle in his younger days ñ doesnít mean heís unfit to be C in C.

Letís talk about what these two men are doing today, what they plan to do tomorrow, instead of dwelling on who they were in their twenties.

I obviously don’t love the man as much as you do, Gordon, but I also recognize that he’s perfectly capable of being the Commander-In-Chief, regardless of any youthful activities. I mean, seriously. Read what I’ve written. Read it again. If you still think I’m slandering the National Guard, or “coldy desecrating” their honor, then I don’t think that there’s anything I could do or say that would convince you otherwise.

And Vinny, I do appreciate the support. Good to know that somebody else is able to see the point I’ve been repeatedly trying to make.

It is a brutal disease and great job fighting it, RKB. My husband’s ex-boss was diagnosed 10 years ago and is still alive and kicking.

Most of the time, I don’t agree with much of what you say, but I’ve been reading this comment thread and you have answered Gordon’s question numerous times above and beyond. Personally I think it’s time to let it go. Remember the old adage about argueing with a fool?

Gordon, that really was a low-blow and completely uncalled for. I usually stay out of these arguements and just read what Vinnie as to say, but your response was probably one of the most ignorant pieces I have read in a while. The only person that owes an apology is you to RKB.

If George W. Bush wants to respond to what I’ve written, he’s more than welcome to do so. Doesn’t that seem reasonable? The same way that, say, John Kerry could respond to Tom’s or Geoffrey’s allegations about his service. And I’m sure that you, Gordon, would never say anything bad about somebody who held the highest office in the land.

Of course, you can’t admit that you’re a hypocrite about when people are and aren’t allowed to criticize politicians, so now you’re all indignant about something you’ve imagined I’ve said.

Don’t dish it out if I can’t take it? Don’t make me laugh, Gordon. Why are you George Bush’s bitch? Instead of letting him respond to my assertions on his own, you step in with your big Gordon bluster, all huffy and angry and missing the point.

See, Gordon, I’m not the President of the United States. I’m not a Senator, or a Congressmen, or even the fucking mayor. I’m not an elected official. Check that: a public servant. Therefore, no, I do not expect my life to be an open book, or my past to be open to the same scrutiny as those individuals.

So I would expect a debate between average Joe citizens to focus on, say, the two candidates. Much like the original post that started this thread. I would expect that a citizen would say “I think Candidate A sucks because of this,” and his supporter would reply by saying “well, I think Candidate B sucks because of this.” I could then write back a witty response like “oh, yeah, might B always do that, but A is so totally a giant suckwad.”

See how it works? We’re debating presidential candidates, not following it up with “well you’re nothing but a gutless fucking shitbag for having the nerve to criticize Candidate A.”

Unless, of course, I was Candidate B.

Which I’m not.

But, since you can’t leave well enough alone (also see comment #42 on Gordon the Never Wrong), I thought you might get a kick out of these next two links. Now, you’ll actually have to click on them, since it seems you missed out on the earlier photos of me in the hospital.

Page 1
Page 2

Consider this life lesson on the house? Thanks, but no. I’ve had much better lessons on being able to take what’s being dished out to me than anything you could ever hope to offer, Gordon.

I like how you keep trying to make this out to be about GW only. It’s not. It’s about an entire generation of men that served in the National Guard that you have insulted, not just GW. It may be convenient for you to backpedal, but you can’t change the written record of this thread because it suits your argument now.

You see, it doesn’t bother you one bit to call into question the honor and integrity of these men because they are a faceless mob to you. Just people.

Well, they aren’t to me. In the 13 years I spent in the military I have served on Active duty, the Guards and the Reserves (in that order). I have stood side by side with the very people that you so freely dishonor.

I’d like to see you say to their faces what you’ve said about Guardsmen on this thread. You got a lot of courage behind a keyboard, I wonder how you measure in person?

I’ve seen your reaction to having your integrity questioned and I don’t think you like it, do you?

How do you think those Guardsmen would have felt?

Wow. Such compliments coming from someone so blatantly grounded in reality.

Who’s talking about the press? I’m talking about the candidates!

This whole Vietnam thing sets up a terrible precident for future campaigns. (especially if Kerry wins)I can just see thirty years from now, one candidate who was a Iraq war vet chastising the other candidate who wasn’t. In fact, I am surprised that a New York City Firefighter hasn’t decided to go into politics yet. Imagine the traction that he can get out of stating that he ran into the burning WTC to save people. How could anyone dare challenge him in any way. No matter what his policy ideas would be. Back to Vietnam, one can only imagine how many Vietnam Vets are currently in prison, and even on death row. Should they have been excused of their criminal behavior since they were “war heros”? The whole damned thing is rediculous. Perhaps after the Republican convention the media will be forced to cover the Presidents policy ideas, and thus force the candidates to talk about issues as well. One can only hope. Until then, I too will significantly tune out.

I don’t think he got to the third paragraph, RKB.

Imagine if Kerry had any connections to a fundraiser like George Soros who’s trying with all his might to turn moveon.org into even more of an anti-Bush organization.

Imagine that.

Pete,

Being a “war hero” won’t buy you a cup of coffee. It shouldn’t be used as a shield to avoid answering questions about your past. Kerry, by his own admission, committed a war crime during Vietnam; essentially shooting an unarmed and fleeing teen VC in the back. What a hero. Meanwhile, all of the special interest whores in NOW, NEA, Planned Parenthood, Move On, Greenpeace, and FILL-IN-THE-BLANK-WITH-CLUELESS-LIBERAL-GROUP are lining up behind their “war hero.” Wow, I can’t wait to have an admitted war criminal in the White House. The French seem to love him. Maybe Kerry can hand over the keys to the Pentagon to the UN, and the Europeans will start throwing roses in front of his path wherever he walks…

Sometimes I wish I deleted more comments…

RKB: You’re backpedaling. Whether Bush joined the National Guard or went to Vietnam isn’t the issue. I don’t care at all. The issue is whether Bush is making Kerry’s service a campaign issue. He ain’t. Game over. Thank you for playing.

[I don't consider a lack of "war hero" experience a disqualification for the White House. The Presidency is a civilian job. Sure, military service is an advantage -- but it *can* also be a disadvantage, in that former military officers might be biased toward military action (whereas, someone with a civilian background might show more restraint). Not always the case. But possible.]

If you want to talk about what Bush is doing today, fine. I’d be happy to discuss that. But the point of this whole thread is that Bush supposedly brought up Kerry’s Vietnam service as his primary campaign message. That’s a bold-faced lie. Bush ain’t talking about Vietnam. And not only is there no connection between the Swift Boat Vets (and give me a break on the NY Times “Six Degrees of Separation” crap; by that measure, we’re all linked to Osama Bin Laden. If the libs in the media applied the same measure to their friends in the Kerry campaign, they’d have a lot of 527 problems on their hands).

Between us, I’m sick of politicians’ lies. I had to stomach Clinton’s lies for 8 long, pathetic years. Kerry is a worthless patrician scumbag, in my opinion, who never took a solid position in his life. Like Clinton, his whole existence has been modeled toward crafting an “image” of JFK; but, when you probe deeper, you find that Kerry is an empty suit. A waffler. A wife-upgrade specialist. Soft on defense. Soft on terror. He can’t decide whether he supports the Iraq war or not (it depends on daily polling, apparently).

You may not like Bush’s actions on faulty intelligence; but he, at least, acted on intelligence; whereas, Kerry read the same intelligence reports and then accused Bush of “lying to the American people about it”. As if. I simply trust Bush more. I don’t trust Kerry to make tough decisions. I think that Kerry will place our sovereignty in the hands of the UN. Because the bottom line is that the doesn’t want to make any decisions. He wants somebody else to be held accountable for decisions — and what better way to do it than hand over control to the limp-wristed UN, a bloated bureaucracy that can certainly pass resolutions but doesn’t have the balls to back them up with boots on the ground.

And that would have what to do with anything, G?

Umm … because it’s one of the stupidest fucking questions I’ve heard in a long time.

It’s not “dodging” a question as much as it is wondering, still, what the hell it has to do with a discussion about Bush and Kerry, trusting that it’s probably just because you like to be a complete pain in the ass.

That’s fine.

Answer is “no.”

And now I will dutifully wait for your sharp wit and keen insight that will tell me exactly what that answer means.

RKB: Whether Bush served in the National Guard or went to Vietnam is irrelevant. The POTUS is a civilian job. Bush isn’t attacking Kerry for his war record and, as far as I’ve seen, there is no link between the Swift Boat Vets and the Bush campaign. Anybody who wants to invoke Six Degrees of Separation between Swift Vet Donors and Bush should probably think long and hard about that proposition — because Kerry has a similar problem with 527-funded organizations.

As for what they’re doing today, I have more confidence in Bush; consequently, I’m going to vote for him. Kerry is a fence-sitter. Wife-upgrade specialist. Kennedy-wannabe. Soft on defense. Soft on terrorism. Given the fact that we’re in a war and Kerry has actually specified that he would pull troops out of Iraq (irresponsible as Hell to make such statements now), the prospect of a Kerry Administration should scare the Hell out of most thinking Americans.

Similar words from Col. David Hackworth:

Sure, Bush dodged the draft, along with a reported 14 million other Americans with the savvy to work out that Vietnam was a no-win, sorry war. But although he had the luck and the connections to land a spot in the Air Guard, he did put his butt on the line flying a machine for which he was entitled to hazardous-duty pay ñ and that’s because zooming around in a jet fighter was and still is highly dangerous.

And sure, Kerryís campaign push on how he Ramboed his way through the war ñ for four months ñ rubs a lot of vets the wrong way. And it does take its toll on those of us who prefer our heroes to be modest, unassuming types like Alvin York ñ who stayed the course until it was ìOver, over there.î

But politics and style aside, Kerry did serve with distinction in Vietnam when he easily could have avoided that killing field. His service to his country shouldnít be diminished by the same despicable, politically motivated tactics visited upon Sens. John McCain in South Carolina and Max Cleland in Georgia, also Viet vets. This kind of gutter-bashing doesnít belong in American politics, and vets shouldnít allow themselves to be used as ammo for cheap shots at one of their own.

(source)

Fuck you, Gordon, for continuing to put words in my mouth and missing the point of my post by a country mile.

I will highlight the important part, in what most people would recognize as the conclusion to the post you’ve apparently taken offense to.

“Letís talk about what these two men are doing today, what they plan to do tomorrow, instead of dwelling on who they were in their twenties.”

And by the way, you fucking dickhead, as long as you want to call people names, I would have failed the physical had I had the chance to enter the draft at 21. In point of fact, all things being the same, if I’d been 20 in 1969 instead of a newborn, I wouldn’t have lived to see 21.

Don’t you dare talk to me about personal courage, you fuck.

I’ve never been a politician and yet I criticize them. Never been a doctor or a lawyer, yet am able to lodge criticisms against those vocations as well. Never been a professional baseball or football player, but I’ll find plenty of people willing to join me in complaining about any number of players.

And yet, in this strange World According to Gordon, I’m unable to levy even the slightest criticism against someone who served in the army unless I’ve done so myself.

Clear enough for you, dolt?

You can’t criticize a woman unless you are one? Can’t criticize your manager?

You’re stupider than I gave you credit for, Gordon, if you think the personal attacks started with this thread. My responses to you start with eleven, based on past history.

Try to check your emotions RKB, it’s embarrassing.

He wasn’t in the Army idiot. If you’re going to defend your “talking points” from MoveOn.org, at least keep the facts straight.

And yes, you are a gutless fucking shitbag for having the nerve to criticize Bush’s honorable service as a Pilot in the Air National Guard.

Did you get that DOLT? A GUTLESS FUCKING SHITBAG AND A MORAL COWARD.

And you’re still dodging the hard questions…

I’m still dodging the hard questions? You’ll have to show me questions I’ve missed, because as far as I can tell, with the exception of “are you a moral coward?” I’ve answered every one.

You, on the other hand, continue to nitpick a word here a word there, thinking it gives you some superior moral ground.

Nothing changes in my post because I wrote “army” instead of “armed services.”

But it’s good to know, now, that in your world you can’t criticize someone unless you’ve walked a mile in their shoes. And since I doubt you’ve served in Vietnam, it’s not possible for you to lodge any criticisms about Kerry’s service.

So now I know that you are nothing more than a simple, arrogant prick, propping himself with some false moral superiority. You are the coward, Gordon, for not being able to see in yourself the things you despise in others. You’re the gutless shitbag.

p.s. I realized there was another quesion you’d asked earlier that I hadn’t answered:

Are you telling me that men that have served in the National Guard ducked out their responsibilities? Are you telling me that men in the National Guard never serve overseas in combat?

Again I’ll fall back on your general stupidity for equating what was CLEARLY a reference to the National Guard in the late sixties to the National Guard of today. It is WELL KNOWN that the Guard then was a safe-haven. OF COURSE I wouldn’t suggest the same today — and you’ll also notice that I didn’t. Dumb shit.

I ask:
“Are you telling me that men that have served in the National Guard ducked out their responsibilities?”

You reply:
“Again Iíll fall back on your general stupidity for equating what was CLEARLY a reference to the National Guard in the late sixties to the National Guard of today. It is WELL KNOWN that the Guard then was a safe-haven.”

So you’re telling me that all men that enlisted and accepted commissions in the National Guard were cowards? That they hid there to avoid Vietnam? Stop dancing around the questions asshole and answer them straight forward.

I ask.
“Are you telling me that men in the National Guard never serve overseas in combat?”

You reply.
“OF COURSE I wouldnít suggest the same today ñ and youíll also notice that I didnít. Dumb shit.”

This is too easy. You talk an awful lot of smack about things you have no idea about. So you’re telling me that during Vietnam, Guardsmen never served in Vietnam or saw combat?

RKB, you don’t know what you’re talking about and struggle time and time again to stand behind MoveOn.orgs “talking points”. Take the next step, cut off the umbilical cord, and learn to think for yourself.

Gutless fuck.

Substance, as defined by the gutless wonder – RKB.

“Fuck you, Gordon.”

“You are the coward.”

So, so typical of poor, poor Gordon. Cherry-picking the stuff that gets under his skin while ignoring the rest.

La-la-la

La-la-la

You’re hopeless, Gordon. Seriously. I’ve answered your questions several times over already. I can’t help it if you’re unable (or unwilling) to see it. Too stupid, or too thick, or, more likely, just too stubborn. You already know what answer you expect from me, so you read everything through that distorted filter.

It’d almost be funny if it wasn’t so pathetically predictable, your knee-jerk opposition to any point I make. You cling to your little kernel of misunderstanding as if it were the last bastion of sanity in your world — to let go, to acknowledge that Robert has made a salient point, oh the unspeakable horrors!

I would be stunned to find if you had EVER written a response that used the words “I understand” or “good point” or “that’s fair.”

Nope.

Not Gordon. Strong Gordon. Powerful Gordon. Oh, yeah. Gordon the Magnificent. A manly man. The manliest of men who will never back down.

The comment from “jheka,” above, is from my stalker … please delete it when you have a chance. Thanks.

Wow. Not just stupid, Gordon proves that he’s also got an inflated sense of self-worth. Hard questions? You don’t ask hard questions, Gordon. What you offer up are transparent attempts to box somebody into a predefined answer that you’re ready to pounce on. You did it once already earlier in this thread, and now you’re doing it again. The only hard part comes with the internal debate about whether or not to give you the satisfaction of answering. But then you’re also happy with NO answer, because it reinforces the answer you already expect, so I’m game.

The trick is, you miserable pile of twice-digested cat vomit, is to actually think. THINK, GORDON. I know this will be a challenge for you, because it will divert whatever remaining wattage comes from that dim bulb on top of your shoulders away from which liberal outrage will be the latest recipient of your venom, but you’ll have to try. You see, “hard questions” are ones that actually require a few brain cells to answer. In your case, since reading comprehension is obviously a skill you decided you didn’t need after kindergarten, I’ll try a different approach to answering your questions one last time.

You stupid fucking fuck.

Do you honestly think I’m having trouble articulating my intent on this thread? Do you seriously believe, you arrogant assclown, that I’m being anything less than clear about my meaning? Am I stuttering, dipshit? Am I being vague? Can you understand my meaning, or do you need to squint and read between the lines and try to imagine what I’m INSINUATING?

So when I write “it was more of an exception that somebody born with a silver spoon in their mouth would actually VOLUNTEER for duty in Vietnam than chose the safe-haven that was the National Guard,” what I MEAN is that during the Vietnam War, choosing to enlist with the National Guard was a safer alternative than actually volunteering for duty in country.

Period.

And if you have any doubts about what’s the TRUTH, then, please, Gordon, scroll to the bottom of this page: U.S. Military Casualties in Southeast Asia, Deaths by Status. Of the approximately 58,000 Americans who were killed in Vietnam, less than one hundred were from the National Guard.

That, idiot, is what I mean when I say that the National Guard was a safe haven during Vietnam. Nothing else. No other deeper hidden meaning. Get it?

“You stupid fucking fuck.”

That’s got to be, hands down, the “stupidest” thing I have heard in a long while.

Bravo Robert.

Sigh. There goes the neighborhood.

I never thought it was possible to run into someone as fucking stupid and arrogant as you RKB. Not once have you answered my question directly. You dance around it everytime, but lack the nerve to come right out and say what you’re insinuating.

You got ZERO balls RKB. That’s probably why never served yourself, no nads right?

I just can’t believe someone who never served, can have the gaul to insult the men that have.

You were nevr willing to raise your right hand, were you? You’re not willing to put your life where your mouth is, are you?

You’re nothing more than a coward with a big mouth RKB.

Now go eat another pot pie and watch CNN and enjoy the freedoms that the men and women, NOT YOU, that have served in the Armed Forces (including the National Guard)have paid for.

I know who you are. Or what you are.

You’re a coward that never served who has the gaul to critisize those who have.

“Iíd be careful if I were you, Gordon. Courage comes in many different shapes and sizes.”

Is that some sort of a petty threat? Excsue me while I stifle the laughter.

“Sounds to me like you’re INSINUATING that the only men and women who are NOT cowards are those that have chosen a path that involves military service.”

Sounds like you have an issue with reading comprehension. I have a problem with assholes like you that never had the balls to serve but have the gall to criticize those who have. Try to pay attention.

“Arenít you calling into question the courage of, say, a Dick Cheney, or a Donald Rumsfeld?”

Donald Rumsfeld did serve you fucking moron. He was an active duty Naval Aviator who retired in the Naval Reserves. Try just once to get your facts straight before you open that gargantuan mouth of yours.

“You read insults in my answers. IF I INSULTED ANYONE, it would be specifically George W. Bush and NO ONE ELSE.”

BULLSHIT, again you lack the balls to stand behind what you said. You’ve indicted an entire generation of men that served in the National Guard as cowards who “ducked their responsibilities” and used the Guard as a “safe haven.” These are your own words cornhole, can you at least stand behind them?

“I think Vinny has demonstrated a shitload of moral courage and clarity over the past six months.”

Ha Ha. Now you’re trying to drag Vinny into the fray. Here’s a newsflash for you RKB – GET A SPINE AND TRY TO STAND ON YOUR OWN TWO FEET.

“I DO NOT THINK ANYBODY WHO FOUND ANY ALTERNATIVE TO SERVING IN VIETNAM WAS A COWARD.”

Amazing, you finally answered the question, sort of. If you don’t THINK, then why do you insinuate?

I am curios why YOU chose to duck out of your responsibilities RKB. Why didn’t you ever serve your country? What’s your excuse?

Well?

Wow! Look at the backpedaling!

The whole post was one big backpedal, douche bag. Just like your excuse for not serving.

Hmm.

Weird.

“I got a young man named George W. Bush into the National Guard … and I’m not necessarily proud of that,” Barnes, an Austin lobbyist and John Kerry supporter with a lucrative Washington practice, said on the tape. “It was the worst thing I did, was help a lot of wealthy supporters and a lot of people who had family names of importance get into the National Guard. And I’m very sorry of that and I’m very ashamed, and I apologize to you as the voters of Texas.”

Source

“Gordon the Fuck who canít fucking read:”
Well said. At what Trailer Park Night School did you earn your GED?

“Show me the words ìNATIONAL GUARDî in that sentence, dickhead. I point to one man who, in his own words, chose the National Guard over OTHER options. I didnít write ìeverybody who joined the Guard ducked out of their responsibilitiesî or that ìthe Guard are a bunch of pussiesî or even ìthe only reason someone would ever join the National Guard was if they were a coward who wanted to avoid service in ëNam.î

Are you really this pathetic? You stated GW shirked the duties of his generation by joining the National Guard. You then proceeded to point out that those who joined the National Guard did so as a “safe haven” to avoid the war and even cited the National Guard website. Therefore, GW, like all the other National Guardsmen, is a pussy that skirted the duties of his generation and avoided the war by joining the national guard. THESE ARE YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE. Get some balls or some some semblance of courage and stand behind what you say RKB.

“Not once, ever, anywhere did I insinuate anything about the men and women of the National Guard. Ever.”

Is that so? Wasn’t it you that accused…

It is WELL KNOWN that the Guard then was a safe-haven.
The Reserves and the Guard acquired reputations as draft havens for relatively affluent young white men. Military leaders questioned the wisdom of depending on reserve forces that might not be available except in dire emergencies.
The point is that IN THAT GENERATION, it was more of an exception that somebody born with a silver spoon in their mouth would actually VOLUNTEER for duty in Vietnam than chose the safe-haven that was the National Guard.

Nope. No sir. No insinuations there. Honest. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

“BY HIS OWN ADMISSION, GEORGE W. BUSH CHOSE THE GUARD IN ORDER TO AVOID COMBAT IN VIETNAM.”

And what’s your excuse for avoiding it? Too many bake sales for the Webelos? I’d say pot meet kettle but you never placed anything on the line for anyone but yourself. You never raised your right hand. The only thing you ever served was blow jobs at the truck stop and rest areas you frequent.

Zero balls RKB. You got zero balls.

“As if I need an ìexcuseî for my career path. From about the age of ten, I wanted to join the Navy, because Roger Staubach had been in the navy. I used to open up the encyclopedia and look at all the ranks and imagine how old I would be when I advanced through them. “

Translation: I always wanted to be a sailor but lacked the balls to actually follow through.

“At seventeen, Iíd mapped out everything that I needed for my application to Annapolis. I was going to be a navy pilot, flying and landing on carriers. I had 30/20 vision. I was set.”

Translation: I had great plans but no follow through. Well, not to mention my lack of credentials. The USNA would have laughed at my application.

“That summer, though, as with my sixteenth summer, were spent as a camp counselor at a YMCA. Did you ever do that, Gordon?”

As a matter of fact cornhole, between the age of 14-24, I spent five summers working at boys camps as an assistant counselor and counselor. You?

At the end of the summer, after much internal debate, I decided that I didn’t love the idea of taking orders, of always doing what I was told regardless of whether or not I thought it was right.

Translation: I got cold feet.

I realized that I loved writing, loved working with people, and that I would be doing my country a DISSERVICE if I continued with my lifelong dream of going to Annapolis, potentially taking a spot from somebody else.

Translation: I’m a fucking pussy with no courage that decided to skirt my responsibilities to my country. I’m also full of shit because Naval Officers write all the time and spend every waking hour “working with people.” I’m really just hiding my cowardice.

but youíd seriously better back the fuck off about questioning my courage

Or what RKB? Or what? Will you call me a “fucking fuck” if I keep it up?

or my dedication to making this country a better place.

Oh, I question it all right. But only because you have the gall to question others. You don’t like the bitter taste of your own medicine do you?

We chose different paths. Yours is no better than mine.

To hell it isn’t. I’m leagues beyond you in public service. Keep playing catch-up though RKB.

Finally, some well-reasoned responses from Gordon. I don’t have time to get into them, all, but #64 is still wrong for reasons I’ll get into later, #65 illustrates where I misunderstood you, and I’m actually sorry for questioning your character, given all that you’ve clearly contributed (even though your’re still playing some kind of dick-measuring contest with me, denigrating the ways in which I’ve served my community), and #66 is all irony.

This is the key paragraph to come back to, which shows you how have not understood the point I made very early on:

Are you really this pathetic? You stated GW shirked the duties of his generation by joining the National Guard. You then proceeded to point out that those who joined the National Guard did so as a ìsafe havenî to avoid the war and even cited the National Guard website. Therefore, GW, like all the other National Guardsmen, is a pussy that skirted the duties of his generation and avoided the war by joining the national guard. THESE ARE YOUR WORDS, NOT MINE. Get some balls or some some semblance of courage and stand behind what you say RKB.

Your “therefore” is not accurate. Take out the “like all other National Guardsmen” and you’d be closer, but still wrong.

President”>http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4179618/“>President Bush: Political season is here. I was ó I served in the National Guard. I flew F-102 aircraft. I got an honorable discharge. I’ve heard this ó I’ve heard this ever since I started running for office. I ó I put in my time, proudly so.

I would be careful to not denigrate the Guard. It’s fine to go after me, which I expect the other side will do. I wouldn’t denigrate service to the Guard, though, and the reason I wouldn’t, is because there are a lot of really fine people who have served in the National Guard and who are serving in the National Guard today in Iraq.

Still do plan on responding to this, Gordon, but since you hate it when people who haven’t served in the Armed Forces criticize those that have, I was wondering what you think about this:

Delegates to the Republican National Convention found a new way to take a jab at Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry’s Vietnam service record: by sporting adhesive bandages with small purple hearts on them.

Morton Blackwell, a prominent Virginia delegate, has been handing out the heart-covered bandages to delegates, who’ve worn them on their chins, cheeks, the backs of their hands and other places.

(source)

We can talk about courage, now, too, since you seem bent on pointing out that because I never served in the Armed Forces that I’m a gutless sack of shit. I’ve said, repeatedly, that courage takes many shapes and many sizes, and that you don’t have a monopoly on courage simply because you’ve been in the military. Or that anybody who has not is a coward.

Take, for example, the twenty-one year old leukemia patient. Five-year survival rates for Acute Myelogenous Leukemia are something on the order of 15-20 percent. So if this guy happens to be one of the approximate one-tenth of one-percent of Americans who are lucky enough to be diagnosed with leukemia, he might be able to take some comfort in knowing that there’s significantly better than a fifty-fifty chance he’d be dead in five years.

Nice.

And, see, the best part is that he’s even started chemotherapy yet. He knows the chemotherapy is going to kick the shit out of him — hair loss is one thing, but all the daily vomiting, the high fevers, the other complications that come along with it — but if he doesn’t go along with the chemo and other supporting drugs, then he’s definitely dead. With the chemo, at least it’s only a maybe.

Oh, yeah. What about that time near the end of his treatment, after the chemotherapy was so strong, so high-dose, and he had that rare eye infection? Your eye is connected to your brain, right, and the infection had spread there, too. Daily MRIs and CAT scans, while he was on a dozen different antibiotics twenty-four seven, and now it’s not just the cancer he’s worried about, but the fact that his skull is going to be opened up. Not much, just a quarter sized chunk, and the doctors promise they’ll of course be extra extra careful when they’re taking the sample of his brain tissue, but it still causes no small amount of concern. He’s definitely afraid about this turn of events, as if he hasn’t already been afraid at any other point during his six-month battle.

But that’s probably just because he’s a coward. Fourteen years later and he’s still a coward, apparently, even though he managed to make it through a deck that was very much stacked against him, and had every opportunity to be killed by a disease that he never volunteered to get in the first place.

As for your medical claims, it would seem you have found your own “SAFE HAVEN” to “duck out” of the responsibilities of your generation. Maybe you have more in common with Bush than you think?

Lots of guys have faked medical claims to avoid serving in the Armed Forces. Why not you?

Gordon, that really was over the line… I think an apology is in order.

Kerry applied for a deferrment and was denied.
Kerry applied for Ferry duty and got sent to combat instead.
Kerry received 3 Purple Hearts in less than four months, none of which required time lost from work.
Kerry was denied at least one, but went back channels on his own to get it.
Kerry displays medals that he didn’t even earn.
The overwhelming majority of the witnesses to Kerry’s medals claim he didn’t earn them and made up the circumstances in which they were received.

Anyone but the kool aid drinkers would at least call them into question.

Vinny, I am immeasurably offended by RKB’s slander of the courage and integrity of our country’s National Guardsmen. These courageous men and women have answered the call to their country and sacrificed much – many have paid the ultimate price.

I would like to see RKB look in the faces of the collective widows and orphans and tell these people their Dad’s were “shirker’s” and “cowards” that found a “safe haven” to “duck out” of their responsibilities.

The day he articulates an apology for his slander, I’ll return the same. Until then, it’ll be a cold day in hell before I apologize to a man that so coldly desecrates the honor of our National Guardsmen.

Gordon, the second and third paragraphs of what Vinny wrote above are pretty much exactly what I’ve been saying all along.

There were people who joined the guard to get out of duty in Vietnam. Denying that is just closing your eyes to the obvious. Did they all? Obviously not.

[...]

But some did, and thatís undeniable.

Are you going to lace into him now, too? Is he dishonoring the Guard, too? Is he calling them all cowards, too?

And PLEASE stop putting words in my mouth. Let me be as clear as day (I’ve already said this, back in #55): “I do not now, nor have I ever felt that ANYONE who looked for alternatives was a coward.” You might think the opposite, Gordon, but that’s your opinion, again, not mine. If you want to take me to task for thinking that George W. Bush was a pampered, spoiled, irresponsible, silver-spoon playboy, then that’s fine. But thinking someone is irresponsible and thinking they are cowards are two different things. I think he was the former, not the latter. I do not equate irresponsibility with cowardice, especially at that age. Who the fuck wasn’t irresponsible at twenty?

I have made absolutely no statements, implied or otherwise, that question the courage, character, or integrity of anybody except George W. Bush. Him and his other arrogant, elite, wealthy buddies represented probably a small fraction of the Guardsmen. Again: disagree with me about the man running for President if you want, but don’t project my feelings about him onto every other person who ever served in the Guard over the past thirty years.

Remember: I don’t think I’ve had any problem stating my intent throughout this thread. If I felt that W. exhibited cowardice, I certainly would have said so. Clearly and repeatedly, just as I’ve been fairly forthcoming with how I feel about you. I even tried to go over the top with this in #47, but you didn’t seem to understand it, then. If you think I’m insinuating something, Gordon, then that just means that you’re reading something into my text that doesn’t exist.

In fact, lost in all of this discussion is what I wrote WAY back up in #13:

Just because Bush didnít volunteer for ëNam ñ and had an acknowledged problem with the bottle in his younger days ñ doesnít mean heís unfit to be C in C.

Letís talk about what these two men are doing today, what they plan to do tomorrow, instead of dwelling on who they were in their twenties.

I obviously don’t love the man as much as you do, Gordon, but I also recognize that he’s perfectly capable of being the Commander-In-Chief, regardless of any youthful activities. I mean, seriously. Read what I’ve written. Read it again. If you still think I’m slandering the National Guard, or “coldy desecrating” their honor, then I don’t think that there’s anything I could do or say that would convince you otherwise.

And Vinny, I do appreciate the support. Good to know that somebody else is able to see the point I’ve been repeatedly trying to make.

It is a brutal disease and great job fighting it, RKB. My husband’s ex-boss was diagnosed 10 years ago and is still alive and kicking.

Most of the time, I don’t agree with much of what you say, but I’ve been reading this comment thread and you have answered Gordon’s question numerous times above and beyond. Personally I think it’s time to let it go. Remember the old adage about argueing with a fool?

Gordon, that really was a low-blow and completely uncalled for. I usually stay out of these arguements and just read what Vinnie as to say, but your response was probably one of the most ignorant pieces I have read in a while. The only person that owes an apology is you to RKB.

If George W. Bush wants to respond to what I’ve written, he’s more than welcome to do so. Doesn’t that seem reasonable? The same way that, say, John Kerry could respond to Tom’s or Geoffrey’s allegations about his service. And I’m sure that you, Gordon, would never say anything bad about somebody who held the highest office in the land.

Of course, you can’t admit that you’re a hypocrite about when people are and aren’t allowed to criticize politicians, so now you’re all indignant about something you’ve imagined I’ve said.

Don’t dish it out if I can’t take it? Don’t make me laugh, Gordon. Why are you George Bush’s bitch? Instead of letting him respond to my assertions on his own, you step in with your big Gordon bluster, all huffy and angry and missing the point.

See, Gordon, I’m not the President of the United States. I’m not a Senator, or a Congressmen, or even the fucking mayor. I’m not an elected official. Check that: a public servant. Therefore, no, I do not expect my life to be an open book, or my past to be open to the same scrutiny as those individuals.

So I would expect a debate between average Joe citizens to focus on, say, the two candidates. Much like the original post that started this thread. I would expect that a citizen would say “I think Candidate A sucks because of this,” and his supporter would reply by saying “well, I think Candidate B sucks because of this.” I could then write back a witty response like “oh, yeah, might B always do that, but A is so totally a giant suckwad.”

See how it works? We’re debating presidential candidates, not following it up with “well you’re nothing but a gutless fucking shitbag for having the nerve to criticize Candidate A.”

Unless, of course, I was Candidate B.

Which I’m not.

But, since you can’t leave well enough alone (also see comment #42 on Gordon the Never Wrong), I thought you might get a kick out of these next two links. Now, you’ll actually have to click on them, since it seems you missed out on the earlier photos of me in the hospital.

Page 1
Page 2

Consider this life lesson on the house? Thanks, but no. I’ve had much better lessons on being able to take what’s being dished out to me than anything you could ever hope to offer, Gordon.

I like how you keep trying to make this out to be about GW only. It’s not. It’s about an entire generation of men that served in the National Guard that you have insulted, not just GW. It may be convenient for you to backpedal, but you can’t change the written record of this thread because it suits your argument now.

You see, it doesn’t bother you one bit to call into question the honor and integrity of these men because they are a faceless mob to you. Just people.

Well, they aren’t to me. In the 13 years I spent in the military I have served on Active duty, the Guards and the Reserves (in that order). I have stood side by side with the very people that you so freely dishonor.

I’d like to see you say to their faces what you’ve said about Guardsmen on this thread. You got a lot of courage behind a keyboard, I wonder how you measure in person?

I’ve seen your reaction to having your integrity questioned and I don’t think you like it, do you?

How do you think those Guardsmen would have felt?

Wow. Such compliments coming from someone so blatantly grounded in reality.