Never forget? We already have…

Never Again? You have to be fucking kidding me. The Holocaust really has nothing to do with the Arab-Israeli feud. Anti-semitism, sure, but not the Holocaust. And, to be honest, I would argue that the atrocities committed by Palestinian terrorists are no more reprehensible than the awful things which have been done by the Israeli army and, yes, Israeli terrorists.

Ugh. Jeez Patrick. You always amaze me.

Dude, just look at a map. Find the little sliver that is Israel. Now look all around Israel. Every single country all over that area wants Israel gone. Israel has to take a hard stance in order to survive. Israel is just looking to live in peace, but they aren’t able to. They are defending themselves against suicide bombers who blow up and kill indescriminantly. I’ve seen it first hand. Israel expanded it’s borders only when they were attacked and they kicked ass against all of the forces against them. Israel has shown efforts to work for peace, and I’ve never seen that from Palestinians.

Israeli terrorists… ha. Do the Israeli’s teach their kids to hate? Do they encourage them to throw rocks and glass at soldiers? Do they strap bombs to their bodies and walk into discos and busses? You cannot seriously believe that Israel has in any way commited acts equal to those of Palestinian terrorist. If you do, than you are dafter than I thought.

The Palestinian territory is governed by a known terrorist organization.

No argument trumps that. Ever.

Vinny,

Yeah, you’re absolutely correct. Don’t know where to go from there.

Rye,

I wonder, somewhat, if you understand the complexity of the issue and the history at hand. I REALLY REALLY don’t want to get into a debate over Israel’s right to exist for it’s way too tiring. It’s important for you to know, though, that the Palestinians have a legitimate beef with Israel (I hesitate to say that this is completely true for all of the Arab states in the region); they don’t just hate for the sake of hating.

Part the First: To my knowledge, Israel has not officially expanded it’s borders since 1967 -since then the nation has actually given back some of it’s land.

Part the Second: It’s pretty easy to kick ass when your foe often carries homemade, improvised weapons, and possess little military training.

Part the Third: The Palestinians have expressed a desire for peace. You must not watch the news. Believe it or not, they aren’t evil. Some of the tactics of a few are despicable, but they, nor their cause are evil.

Part the Fourth: During the 20′s, 30′s and 40′s, Israeli gangs committed incredible atrocities against Palestinian civilians. Many of those gangs combined and blossomed into what is now the Israeli Army. Seeing as how the Israeli Army still fires live ammunition on ‘glass throwers’ and has bombarded Palestinian neighborhoods with missiles for the sake of killing one Hammas member… you make the call, I guess
Oh, and in 1995, when Arafat and Rabin were on the verge -truly the closest ever gotten to a peace between the two peoples- it was an Israeli who assassinated Rabin.

Part to your first: I’m talking of the ’67 Six Day War. Israel against Egypt, Jordan and Syria with support (troops and weapons) from Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait… all of these countries surrounding a little sliver… amassing tanks and troops on their borders, calling on all Arabs to destroy Israel. Israel said fuck that, fought and won. They increased their land only then (after Egypt kicked out peace keepers so they could gain strategic position in Sinai). I’m sorry, but in history, isn’t that how things go? You win, you keep what you’ve got. And you’re right, they’ve given back some of that, even though it’s strategic territory that they lose.

Part to the second: These were not guys with home made weapons. And see how you’d react if you were patroling the borders and you had rocks and glass and fire thrown at you. Their lives are at risk just being assigned to those areas. Yeah, it sucks, but you throw rocks at my house with malicious intent, then I’m going to attack back if at all possible. Maybe you’ll think twice next time. What a disgusting culture that trains it’s kids to do these things.

Part to the third: The Palestinian government is a joke. They can say whatever they want, but they aren’t calling the shots. Have you seen what they teach children there? I can assure you it has nothing to do with living harmoneosly with the neighbors. And I’ve seen what they teach in Israel, and it’s not about the big bad palestinians. Most every Israel I’ve met says that they want peace, and they hold no animosity against Palestinians. However, nearly all Palestinians I’ve met support the terrorist actions and place blame on Israel.

Part the Fourth: Hammas is a terrorist group. They hide amongst civilians who support them. While I don’t condone certain acts of violence, I know that Israel has to take action. They make the calls they think best. How many times have they held back or ignored attacks because the US asked them to? Sometimes they need to let it be known that they aren’t taking shit from anyone.

And how about recently (within the past 7 years) when Israel was willing to give up control of parts of the country to the UN to monitor, and Palestinians weren’t satisfied because they didn’t get sole countrol of Jerusalem and the old city (any time they have control of a jewish holy site, they destroy it, where as the israeli’s preserve palestinian holy sites). And don’t even start on “right of return”. That’s just a freakin’ joke.

I refer you again to the map. Look at the sliver that is Israel and then look at all the arab nations surrounding them. It’s quite frightening. Then look at the conditions the palastinians live in. No other arab group will take them in. Look at the conditions the israeli’s live in. They built up their country, took pride, created irrigation systems to farm in the dessert.

And you know what, I live in Rockland in NY. We have a large enough Jewish population, but you know, I’ve seen antisemitism that has made me sick to my stomache. It exists in the world, and if it can exist in an accepting country/state/city like NY, then it’s out there. So yeah, there is a need for Israel. I never saw that growing up, but I see it now, after what I’ve experienced in my life.

I never said Israel is without any blame at all. But you cannot compare them to the Palestinians like that.

And as Vinny said, “The Palestinian territory is governed by a known terrorist organization. No argument trumps that. Ever.”

…so yeah, I feel I do understand the complexity of the situation.

Again, I think you are thinking philosophically, and not basing your ideas in reality.

No… you’re way off.

“And see how you’d react if you were patroling the borders and you had rocks and glass and fire thrown at you.”

Oh, so it makes the most sense to fire live ammunition at the protesters. Perhaps that’s what we should do when Americans flip over cars, loot commercial centers, and assault police officers after a city’s team wins the Superbowl…
Firing live ammunition at people who are armed with glass and rocks is not acceptable. C’mon…

“What a disgusting culture that trains it’s kids to do these things.”

What a disgusting culture indeed!!! Almost as disgusting as the Hungarian youths who threw glass bottles and rocks at Soviet guards. Almost as disgusting as Americans who hid in the forests and viciously attacked British soldiers with knives and hatchets.

“They built up their country, took pride, created irrigation systems to farm in the dessert.”

Dude, don’t use this to disparage the Arab and Persian countries around them. They didn’t do this by themselves. Do we need to count the amount of monetary aid from the U.S. that is alloted to Israel and not the surrounding countries?

“We have a large enough Jewish population, but you know, I’ve seen antisemitism that has made me sick to my stomache. It exists in the world, and if it can exist in an accepting country/state/city like NY, then it’s out there. So yeah, there is a need for Israel.”

So, because Jewish people are discriminated against, they deserve their own nation? Brilliant argument…..

Dude, don’t use this to disparage the Arab and Persian countries around them. They didn’t do this by themselves. Do we need to count the amount of monetary aid from the U.S. that is alloted to Israel and not the surrounding countries?

You’ve gotta be shitting me. Have you not noticed the glass and concrete penises popping up all over the arab desert? The Arab countries surrounding Israel, for the most part, are third world at best and it’s by choice. Keep the people poor and dumb and they accept a country where women who get raped must be killed for dishonoring their family.

They have more money than God and are sitting on even more of it. They just choose to live off it rather than give it to their people.

Israel did do quite a bit with US help, but there are plenty of countries who do very little with US help and get almost as much (*cough* Egypt). Frankly, I’m tired of hearing this bullshit argument.

Israel built what it built because it’s a modern civilized country. The ones surrounding it are third world 15th century kingdoms with a bunch of oppressive douchebags killing their people.

Frankly, if the other countries around it were so great, they’d stop using the Palestinians as pawns and let them move in. Instead, they leave them in refugee camps so they can use them as pawns in their little game of “look how oppressed we are.” The only places that Palestinians live in refugee camps in the entire world are arab countries.

That speaks volumes about the kind of scumbags that surround Israel.

Yeah, I would agree, for the most part. Palestine, though, is a huge exception. Palestinians, as a whole, are some of the poorest people in the world.

They sure are.

And their Arab brothers are doing nothing to help them because it would absolutely ruin their bargaining chip.

It’s a model for unregulated capitalism.

Unregulated capitalism is a disaster waiting to happen. If we let the world come to that, people will be selling other human beings simply because the market decides that’s what it wants.

Thanks, but no thanks.

I agree, but unregulated capitalism is what we have on a global scale. It’s sad, but it’s true. Why do you think third world countries rarely, if ever, make their way to ‘development’ status?

Sorry, I’ve been busy… but Vinny made some of my points for me. Even the other arab countries don’t want the Palestinians. Sure, I feel bad because they get shit on, but I don’t think calling for the destruction of Israel is the answer.

And I agree that unregulated capitalism on a global level is a disaster waiting to happen, but I’d lean towards a disaster that is slowly coming to fruition in some cases.